S4E13: Beautiful Brokenness: Heather Thompson Day Opens Up About Faith and Family

In this powerful episode, Beautiful Brokenness bestselling author and communicator Heather Thompson Day shares her deeply personal journey of navigating life’s hardest choices. With honesty and vulnerability, Heather reflects on how broken moments can become sacred spaces where God’s grace meets us. From the challenges of family life to the questions that shape our faith, Heather reminds us that our stories—no matter how imperfect—are still being written by a loving God.

Whether you’re wrestling with your own brokenness or searching for hope in uncertain seasons, Heather’s story will inspire you to see beauty in the places you least expect it.

CONNECT WITH HEATHER

If you want more of Heather (and trust me you will, she's that awesome), you can get information about her books and connect with her on social media here on her website - https://www.heatherthompsonday.com/

CONNECT WITH US

And as always, Annie and I would love to hear from you. Have you or a loved one been impacted by cancer or another illness? How are you coping? How can we pray for you? Please email us at mazuri@mazuriministries.org, or share your story with us on IG @davenialeawrites, or on FB @annieraney

And if you know someone who might benefit from this series, please share it with them. Your share might just be the hope they need!

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🔗 Again, don’t forget to subscribe, share, and leave a review to keep the conversation going!

Today's episode song is Flowers by Samantha Ebert. Please note this song is for your listening enjoyment only and cannot be downloaded or shared.

Thanks for listening! From our hearts to yours!!

Transcript

Speaker Annie: Welcome to the Didn't Ask to Be a Hero podcast.

I'm your host, Annie Raney. In each episode, we will get an opportunity to see how ordinary women are now living amazing, abundant and extraordinary lives with God's help.

May their stories serve to encourage and inspire you.

Heather: Let's get started.

Speaker Annie: Hello listeners, welcome Today. We are so excited about the topic today because I think it's relevant to anybody listening. Of course, audience tends to be more women, but I think anybody listening to this can relate to the topic that we're going to discuss.

So the question we have today is, does having God in your life make a difference?

Does having God in your marriage and faith in your marriage and your family help hold it together?

So today we have a guest that's going to help us understand a little bit more about this topic. So I'm actually going to throw it over to Divinia and let her introduce our guest.

Davenia: Yes. Good morning.

This morning I'm excited to introduce to you all Heather Thompson Day.

And we're going to let her speak for herself. But she is,

I believe, a professor at Andrews University,

also an author,

public speaker,

wife,

mother,

just an incredible woman with, I believe, an amazing testimony. So looking forward to hearing from you this morning. Good morning, Heather.

Heather: Thank you so much. I am no longer at Andrews University. I was there for many years, but I do full time ministry now, so. No, my family moved to Texas. We,

we're Texans.

Davenia: Wow, you're Texans now. Okay, great. Oh, well, tell us about full time ministry. What's that like for you?

Heather: Oh my, it has been such a blessing being able to, honestly, I felt like so much of my life I was surviving it because I had all three of my children in my PhD program.

And so I know, I remember being in like the orientation and they were like, you probably shouldn't get a dog until you're done with your program. And I had three babies in the course of my program and then I went straight into teaching.

I'd been teaching for many years and was always traveling often on the weekends and doing book writing projects all at the same time. And it was wonderful. But also I really struggled to be present in my own body,

you know, and even, even as my dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, like even feel those feelings, you know, because I, it's hard to take time when you're about to teach a class or preach a sermon to even know what you're actually experiencing in your own body.

And so this past year,

being able to be really just have one row to hoe I have taken a lot of time to just even feel the wind and I hope hear the voice of God and be present in my own body, know my own feelings and emotions.

It's been very, very healthy for me. So I'm very. And in Texas,

you know, it's pretty warm. You're even in January, I was able to go running. So I've been running almost every single day this past year. So it's been a very healthy year for me spiritually and mentally and physically as well.

Davenia: Wow. I was going to say, can you build a wind in Texas, though?

Heather: Oh, yes. I'm in a very windy place. I live in Midland. It is like all wind, constant wind. Yeah. Oh, wow.

Speaker Annie: Heather, can you tell us a little bit about. So we know now you're in the ministry and you used to teach at a university and you're now raising your family in big old Texas.

So. But what was life like for you growing up as a child?

Heather: So I grew up. I always tell people I grew up in a van essentially because my dad was an evangelist. So we traveled every single weekend and internationally to wherever dad was speaking or singing.

So my dad was in Broadway.

Um, that was his background. And somebody left a religious writings book in a taxi cab in New York City. And it. He read it and it changed his life. And he ended up going into ministry and developing.

Kids are Christians Too, which was a radio program that went all over the country. And then he did. He would take.

He took it like a Bible story. It was the Book of Jonah. And he turned it into a one man show. It was called Jonah, Jonah. And we would travel around literally all over the world where he would do this show.

It was a musical to the Book of Jonah. It was just. He was just so talented and so incredible.

So that was my childhood was kind of being in rooms where I've. I'm not somebody that's ever wrestled with whether or not God exists.

My struggles have more been God, why aren't you being good to me?

I believe that you are there.

Are you not listening to me? Have you forgotten me? Where are you? Especially as my dad was,

you know, who gave his entire life, every penny he ever made, went back into his ministry. And then as he got Alzheimer's and we're trying to figure out how to afford a nursing home for him, it very much.

I really struggled the last probably four years feeling like,

God, where are you?

How can somebody give their whole lives to you and have nothing to show for it?

So. But of course that was my earthly Thinking, not my kingdom upside down kingdom thinking.

So, anyway, I've gone on a journey this past several years where I've kind of rediscovered,

honestly have rediscovered God and even what it means,

what my ministry looks like, what my life looks like. But I couldn't do any of that. This is why I was so saying in the beginning, I could not even process any of this.

Every time I had to keep the podcast microphone on or get up on stage or write another book,

man, I mean, I really am grateful for the kind of. For breaking down,

kind of had a little breakdown. And I'm really grateful because it caused me to stop and to really wrestle through what I was actually experiencing and questioning about God.

And I have come out of this season.

I don't know if stronger would be the word, but definitely okay with my weakness,

definitely understanding that his strength is made perfect in my weakness. And so therefore, I never have to resist it.

Don't have to resist these feelings.

You know, it's actually where God can step in even more.

So,

yeah, that's a little bit about.

Speaker Annie: Me.

Davenia: Sometimes, you know,

in our busyness and even if it's pursuit of good,

we lose sight of our dependence on God, or so things are so noisy we can't hear from him,

or we allow our circumstances to dictate our next assignment or what it is that we're doing because,

oh, I got to pay bills. That must mean I need to go cling to this job that has a paycheck. When he's called you to do something else.

Heather: Oh, goodness. We could talk about that. Girl, that's me.

I know what it feels like to have literally one of the last chapters in my last book is called what if I'm Wrong. One of the last chapters is called 212 30.

And that's because that's how much book money I had left in my bank account. 212 30.

And that's what I'm saying. When you're wrestling and trying to figure out, you know,

nursing home care can cost up to $10,000 a month.

Where are you?

Yeah,

you know,

but here, let me just say to somebody that has $212.30 in their bank account, I just want to say this to you. This is what the Lord has revealed in my own life.

And I also want to say we could do testimonies about money because it is just money. I want you to know that every time you pray, it is just money.

And I actually think it's one of the easiest resources for God to bring.

Right? And sometimes that's sometimes it's like in a mysterious check that ends up on your doorstep. I've had that. It's also been in me asking my sister to help me that month.

I think sometimes we miss God because we're only looking for, like,

God.

God is invisible because he's supposed to be seen through his people.

So we are, we are constantly being invited into experiences where we are revealing God to somebody else or God is being revealed to us through somebody else. And I think sometimes, again, like I said in the beginning, we will rob ourselves of weakness.

So I'm not doing anything, Lord, until I'm strong. Until I have.

Once you give me the degree or the money or the marriage or that's when I'm gonna move. Well, now I'm strong.

But his strength is made perfect in weakness.

But rarely, at least I'm talking to myself, friends,

rarely did I ever allow myself to do things that were not ready or perfect.

And so I think for many years of my ministry, I robbed myself of seeing God really move for me.

Um, so I just want to say, here's what the Lord revealed to me on a run. It was in September and it's kind of changed my whole outlook on life.

Um, I was on a run and I felt like the Lord said,

because I was complaining, you know, about all these things in my life. And I felt like, God, this is going to make me cry to even talk about. But I just felt like you said,

you don't have to perceive that I am blessing you in order for you to go and be a blessing.

And you don't have to perceive that I am being good to you in order for you to go and bring goodness into this world. And because this is always available to you, you can always choose to bring blessing and goodness into this world.

I am available to you at every step.

If you want to see. Stop asking for God to reveal himself to you. Start asking for God to reveal himself in you.

Ooh,

that's the point.

That's actually the invitation of the Christian who's walking in a spirit filled life. Is that we. Despite my. Despite cancer,

Despite Alzheimer's, despite $212.30, I can make a choice to say, God, allow me to make a moment for someone today.

And I am telling you, watch.

Ask for eyes to see and ears to hear and he will send you people to just. And it might be a little. It doesn't have to be like massive things.

It might just be like saying to somebody like, hey, you're really good at That I see you.

What's your plans with that? Where are you heading with that? You're. That's a gift of yours. Just take those opportunities. When the Spirit speaks to you and says, hey, say this to that person.

Go sit next to this person. I was at Popeyes.

I'm telling a long story now, but I was at Popeyes. I was going to speak in Gainesville,

and I stopped at a Popeyes before I went in,

and there's this elderly man sitting by himself at a table.

And I. I was in a rush, honestly, because I was. I had to go to my event. And I felt the Spirit say, because a prayer I pray every morning is, lord, help me to make a moment for someone.

Today I.

Every single day, just let me have had God revealed in me so that I know, despite $212 and 30 cents, that God is as near as my own skin.

And so every day, help me to make a moment for someone. Today I'm in Popeyes, and I see this elderly man, and I'm sitting down trying to eat my chicken fingers.

And I felt the Spirit say, go ask if he would like some company.

And I just thought, oh, man, Lord. Like,

that's like, I just don't want to do that right now. You know what I mean? I'm heading somewhere else. I just got off a plane.

He probably is intentionally alone. I don't want to make this weird. And I just real. I just kept feeling that burden. And so I went. I went over. I was like, hey, sir, would you.

Would you like some company? He was like, what? I was like, would you like some comp. Would you like me to join you? He was like, oh, sure, honey. And I came and I sat next to him and we had a conversation.

And it ended up that he grew up, like, 30 minutes from where I grew up in Berrien Springs, Michigan. And he was from Kalamazoo. So we just had all these.

But we were here in this Popeyes in Gainesville, so we had all these things in common, and we had a good. A good lunch together. And then he went back on the road, and I went to my event.

Nothing happened, right? Like, it's not like he. I handed him a Bible and, you know, baptized him in the backyard. None of that happened.

But I was obedient.

Davenia: Yes, right.

Heather: And. And be. And when we're obedient, you just. You just don't know. In kingdom economics, you have no idea how God multiplied that little seed of just maybe, maybe that man was sitting there saying, like, man, nobody sees me or I'm so lonely or my kids haven't called and that I have no idea.

Maybe not. You know what I mean? All I know is I was obedient.

And so we have. We are always invited friends, no matter what you're going through, I just want you to know you are always invited to have God be revealed in you.

That's the miracle.

Wow.

Speaker Annie: There's so much I can unpack with that. Heather, I know that you made me think and reflect on my own life. And it's funny because I don't know. And that's the whole purpose of our, Our, our podcast.

And you don't know how you are a hero to somebody else and like, to that man. And Popeyes, we don't know what that ripple effect had on him.

Heather: Right.

Speaker Annie: And I can reflect back on my life.

I don't know what impact I've had on others. But I do remember a stranger impacting when I had a big, bad breakup. And I was like, asking God, how could you do this?

I'm faithful to you. And then this horrible breakup happens,

and a stranger came into my life and made me break down. And she didn't know who I was or that I was a Christian. And she said to me,

doesn't God have something better planned for you? And it shook me. Cause it was a stranger talking to me. And what made him say this to me, I never saw again in my life.

This happened, like, 20 some years ago.

And so that is exactly what you're talking about. And, Divya, I didn't know where this podcast was gonna go, but it's taken us in a place we didn't think. But I do wanna ask you this, Heather.

When you were growing up,

you said you were traveling constantly with your dad. You know,

and so what I don't. Tell us a little bit about how that lifestyle of however you grew up,

how it impacted your views of family, your views of marriage. You know, oftentimes the marriage is watching our parents or grandparents.

And so tell us about you.

Heather: Yeah, I had.

I'm very sensitive about these. About my child and all these things because I'm watching my dad,

you know, forget me, you know, so I'm, I'm. I'm in this very, you know, strange place right now of, like, beautiful brokenness. But I had a beautiful childhood with parents who were madly in love.

My dad, I told you, he was in show business and he was doing a show. He's in Jesus Christ Superstar, and he was doing a show in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

And he went to a restaurant, a pretty. A fancy restaurant in the area. And my mother was his waitress.

And he turned to the. His.

One of the musicians in the show and said, that's my wife.

I know it. That's my wife.

She did not know it, but he gave her tickets to the show. And they stayed together ever since. They've been married almost 40 years,

or over 40 years, I think now. Yeah, over 40 years.

And so then when my dad left show business, they kind of, you know, they did ministry together. My mom,

who she worked. She works right now as human resource director.

So she always worked and did accounting and different things, but she would run the sound booth for my dad on the weekends when we would travel to all these different places.

One of my dad's rules in ministry was that he would almost never accept invitation somewhere where his family could not also come.

And so that's why we had the big van,

because it was cheaper than buying all the plane tickets.

So we. We went as a family. My dad used to say, this is a family business.

I don't know somebody. This is bad. But I just remember, like, even when I would try to keep various secrets, he would say, you know, you don't have business. This is a family business.

Like, what's going on? Tell me what's going on in your. In your life.

So I.

Yeah, I got to be.

And I watched my dad be the same person on stage as he was offstage. He was. He would get up before everybody else got up and go get on his knees, honestly.

Groan.

Now, I understand those groans. I didn't understand it as a child, but just groan before the Lord over this calling that he felt like he had in ministry.

And.

Yeah, and. And so. And. And I'm somebody too, that was engaged. I was engaged to be married. And I called off my wedding. Two months before the wedding,

my dad was going out of town. And he said to me. And my dad was always like my spiritual leader, my spiritual hero.

And all of a sudden, this is two months before my wedding. And I'm telling you, my parents did not say anything negative about my fiance before this moment. All of a sudden, my dad said, I have a really bad feeling.

I don't think you're supposed to marry him two months before my wedding.

And I said, okay. And he said, I really want you to pray about this.

And then they went out of town. I was still living at their house. Cause I was supposed to move into my new apartment with my husband in two months.

And I went to my.

My Little twin size bed in my parents house. And I prayed and I said, God, this is the person I've chosen. If this is not the person that you've chose me, help me end it, because I don't think I can.

And within literally five minutes of saying that prayer, my phone rang and it was my fiance and he was calling to break up with me out of, out of nowhere.

Okay, we had just picked out wedding invitations that day. Nothing had happened.

And so I knew, okay, he's going to try to get back together with me, of course. But the Lord has answered my prayer. He like picked a fight with me about something.

I can't even remember what it was, but something about the reception.

And so I just said, when,

when he calls me to get back together, I can't do it. Like, I have just asked God to intervene and he did. And I have to be obedient. And so I'm praying, I'm sobbing.

I didn't even call my parents. I didn't tell anybody because I was so embarrassed. I had bridesmaids who had bought expensive bridesmaid dresses that they wouldn't wear.

And so I'm laying in my bed, it's like 2am Now. And I just remember I had repeated over and over, lord, can you just have mercy on me? Have mercy on me.

And my phone rang and I thought, okay, this is my fiance and he's calling to get back together with me, but I'm going to be strong. And I answered the phone and it was not my fiance.

It was Seth Day,

who was the cutest boy in my sixth grade class. I met him in sixth grade.

I absolutely loved him in sixth grade. Had a big crush on him.

His family moved away.

I never saw him again. I don't think after 8th grade I never saw him again. And then I saw him my sophomore year of college.

He was sitting in the financial aid office and my mom at that time was the director of financial aid for Andrews University. And I go, oh my goodness, Seth Day from sixth grade.

And I wrote my number. I have never done this. I haven't done it since. But I wrote my number on a little note and I gave it to my mom to give to Seth during his loan counseling, which I'm sure is like a FERPA violation or something.

But she gave him my note and then he never called me, right? And so then like a couple days later I see him and he's holding hands with this blonde girl walking across campus.

And I was like, oh my goodness, he has a girlfriend. That's so embarrassing.

Two years later,

on the very night that I call off my wedding, he calls me. He saved that little note that I had given him in his backpack for two years.

And he calls me on the night we called off my wedding, and he goes, I have no idea why I'm calling you. I just found your note.

And I just was like, hey, what's. I just decided to call.

And I said, I just called off my wedding. So anyway, he drove down the very next day. And this is honestly like a sad story for my ex fiance, but like an incredibly story for me in my life because I have the best husband and the best kids and just such a happy marriage.

We've been together ever since.

And that took God's intervention and involvement.

Davenia: Yeah. So talk about this happy marriage. Talk about happy. And what's the formula and the key?

Heather: You know, I hate, I hate to say that because marriage obviously is two people and we can only ever control our this. And I taught communication for almost 15 years. You can only control your own communication.

Right. I mean, my sister married a good Christian boy, I mean the only boy she ever kissed,

and he ended up having an affair and they got divorced. This is no fault of her own.

You know,

you can only control you.

So it's hard to say, like, oh, happy marriage. I don't know, it has to be two people, I think, that are staying connected to God and to each other to make that happen.

And unfortunately, one person can do all the right things and it still just doesn't work.

So I'm sensitive to that in those conversations. But my husband, he just said this to me the other day because we go on walks all the time, I mean, constant, we're chronic walkers.

And he said to me the other day, he was like, I think that there is a correlation to like our deep friendship and all these walks that we go on because we constantly are talking to each other.

And so I don't, I.

I'm just really careful because I think at the end of the day, I think what God is really looking for,

I always tell this, I used to say this to my students is I think God just wants people that treat his daughters well.

You know, like, are they. What is their character? Are they a liar? Are they a manipulator? Are they a user? Are they a hard worker? Are they affirming of you?

Do they make your life better? I think those are things that make a healthy partner. And then as far as somebody, not everybody, I think, I think we should all like,

yeah, obviously have a relationship with God. But I just. In my experience,

not everybody's wired the same.

And I don't think that that makes them bad partners.

Like, so I would say, lady, if you're. If whoever's listening is like, yeah, but I'm the one that's getting up and have worship. So lead.

Lead,

because that's. That's who you are. Don't stop being who you are.

You lead. And of course you pray for your partner, but maybe they're just not a leader.

And is that okay?

I think it's probably okay. You know, as long as somebody's treating you well, I think that's okay. I don't think God is, like, I don't look at my children and say,

oh, but this one's better. You know what I mean? Like, they're all different, and they all have different strengths. And in one area, like, my. This is actually really interesting.

My son, who is like, not as academic, praise my other two. My. My one son, my youngest is in the gifted and talented program. It's school, very academically focused. My.

My middle child has ADD pretty severely.

Way more like problems and stuff with him at school. He's also the one that gets up and reads his Bible,

which I think is interesting. Right. Like,

I just think some of us are wired that way. And it's probably that you're really wired to be like a spiritual leader.

And I think that there are simply people that God has called to lead.

And so you lead.

Davenia: Yeah. And I think some of.

In alignment with what you're saying.

When I asked about a happy marriage, I think that a lot of times we're looking for this relationship and we think happy equates to. Then we have no problems, we have no difficulties, or that I'm in love with this person every single day.

Heather: Sure. And.

Davenia: And I think you made a poignant point in that the happiness comes from that relationship with God and with God being all in the midst.

So now that you're pursuing ministry full time, you've taken some things off your plate.

What does balance look like for you?

Heather: Yeah, So I.

My rule with my family,

I mean, there's moments where we'll like, sit down and have a family conversation about changing something up. But a general rule is that I'm. I'm home two weekends and I'm gone two weekends.

And one of the rules that I have for myself is that I'm fully present where I am.

And so if I'm home.

So I don't do, like, I don't do Podcast interviews I don't do,

I don't get on my computer to do work. When my kids come home from school at 4 o', clock,

I'm making dinner for my kids. And that's like a conscious choice that I make to be present with them. I'm at every game.

As long as I'm in town, I'm there. You know what I mean? I am screwed. You will hear me from the bleachers. I am there. I took my kids to cross country practice this morning at 7am a rule for me.

And I just think this is part of what it means to be connected to the Holy Spirit is like I am very intentional with wherever I am that God has placed me.

I believe I'm here not to scroll my phone right, but to have conversations with my kids, to put, to play the long game,

do the work, you know, be present.

However, I will also say,

like right now, when I'm on here with you guys, this may as well be Good Morning America for me.

My kids know, like, you're not coming in here,

you know, if I am, when I'm doing work, I'm also very present with that. And I treat every single thing as if it's the most important thing I'm going to do when I have to go to Ohio at the end of this month because it's, that's going to conclude my summer break.

And I don't like if my kids call me while I'm speaking unless there's like an emergency. I don't answer it.

And they just know mom is, she's, she's ministering right now. And that is my focus. When I get to the hotel room, I'll call you guys back and we can sit and FaceTime and have that conversation.

But when I'm with people, I am fully with people. That was a practice I used to do, even teaching with my students. If you come into my office,

I'm not checking my phone,

I'm going to sit, I'm going to look at you and have a conversation. I think it's important that we really see ourselves as revealing. God, God, how are you having me reveal who you are today to the people that you put into my hand?

And so being really present wherever I am is, is how. I don't know if that's balanced though.

It's just,

it's actually a lot, I think it's a lot more work,

but.

Davenia: Yeah, but I think it's healthy.

And I, and I think it's hard,

especially in today's time when when you hear all about, let's multitask and, oh, goodness, I can do three, four, five things at once.

And we want quick answers and we want short, easy.

And yes, it is harder, but I think it's. It's important that we. We be present. We connect with people.

And. And yes, people should feel like,

ah,

I'm. I'm important in this.

Heather: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my husband and I do the same with each other for,

like, when we go on our walks, our kids can't come.

I'm. Right now, I'm with my husband, and I will be back with you in an hour. You know, that's. It's important for me to have that individual time. I'll tell you, I had this moment just an example of how we can do better.

Because especially I told you I was like, teaching and writing and traveling on the weekends. I just. I. I had not made. I mean, I was not cooking. I was ordering out constantly.

Okay. And that's fine. I'm not shaming anybody. Like, you can run your family the way you want. It doesn't matter to me. What mattered is that my son, my youngest, Sawyer,

said to me,

you know, Fisher. He was talking about one of our neighbors. Fisher's mom makes.

Makes dinner with her own hands.

That's what he said to me. She makes it with her own hands. I said, is that important to you? And he said, yeah, I want you to make me dinner with your own hands.

And from. I'm telling you, that was probably two years ago. From that day on,

I cook for my kids.

And it's a lot of work,

obviously, right, to plan these things out, and especially when I'm still trying. But it's. I found out, oh, that's. That is how I'm communicating love to this child. My daughter probably does.

My daughter is just as happy with takeout. She's like, me, you know, she's like, just feed me. She doesn't care. My youngest, he wants me to make it for him.

And so part of my being present is to make sure that individual child feels love in the way that he receives it. And so I'm going to sit, I'm going to make your food, you know, so just ask.

Ask your kids and your family, what could I be doing better?

That's a question I ask my kids almost every year. Okay. What is. What is one thing mom could be doing better at?

Davenia: It's scary.

Heather: It's scary. It's always shocking when they give you an answer. Yeah. I promise you, they'll give you an answer.

Speaker Annie: I love what you said, I think,

where you said, you're intentional with your time and who's taking up your time?

Because a lot of us, you know, we're. Okay, you're educated, you're working. A lot of women are, you know, working,

you know, outside the home and raising children.

And what we tend to do is,

you know, work.

Heather: Yeah.

Speaker Annie: Work is a priority. And even though we say family's priority, when we're home with our family, the phone rings, and it's the boss, it's the colleague. We're like, okay, hold on a second.

And we tell the kid to hold on, and we still take that call. But I love how.

How a lot of us are intentional with work. Like, okay, Mommy's working from home, but I'm in my office, and the kids know to leave us alone. Okay, fine. A lot of us do that, especially after 2020, you know, remote.

Working from home.

However,

we don't necessarily do the same thing when we're with the kids or the family. We're with them, and we get a work call and we take it because work is important.

Heather: You know what I mean?

Speaker Annie: It doesn't mean that we're not loving our family. It's just that I love that you said you shut it down when school clock comes. You're like, no, it's about my kids and me and our relationship and something so simple yet profound.

Heather: Yeah.

Speaker Annie: That we. We really do. When. And then I. I was gonna ask you this. I love the way you said, you know, when you go on your walks with your husband, your kids know.

Okay,

you're with your husband. And it's interesting because I think kids see sometimes.

Heather: They don't see.

Speaker Annie: They see Mommy and they see Daddy, which are mine as a child. They don't see wife and husband.

Heather: Absolutely.

Speaker Annie: I like the way you said,

I'm with my husband. And they know that you didn't say, I'm with their daddy.

Because if it's their daddy, they have rights to him. You said, I'm with my husband. And so many children don't see that. They're like, why is she with my daddy?

I want him. Or, why is he with my mommy?

Heather: I need her now. Sure.

Yeah. It is hard for my kids. My daughter, literally, we had this conversation last night where she was like,

you know, trying to come. We had just. We had just got back from family vacation, so we have been together as a family nonstop in the same hotel room for over a week.

We went to all their track meets, all that stuff. And then we, we got home and my husband and I were gonna go on a walk and she was like, oh, I wanna come.

And I was like, this is mom and dad's time. Like, I'm, this is. We have a marriage and I'm gonna go with him. And then when I come back, you and I can watch a show.

You know, I, I just think it's important that you have.

And I will say that going like, I saw that modeled for me too. As a child, my parents had a very strong mar.

Speaker Annie: They did.

Heather: And I even knew, I mean, this is probably a controversial take, but I knew my, I had no doubt whether or not my parents loved me,

but I knew that they had a marriage.

It was evident that they had a relationship that did not include me.

Davenia: And so often, you know, when you become a parent, especially I think for mothers.

Heather: Yeah.

Davenia: Like I just became a grandma.

But kids pull at your heart in a different way.

And I like what you said about having to, you have to be intentional. I remember my husband and I, when the kids were young, we used to do weekly date nights.

Heather: Yes.

Davenia: I made a big deal about getting ready for my date. I'm going on a date.

Heather: Yes.

Davenia: And my son was like, with who? I'm like my husband and he's like, him again.

And I was like,

yes, them again. And,

and, but, and I, you know, made it a big deal and I'm getting ready and I'm excited because I wanted them to see that. Yes, there we are, husband and wife.

In addition to being mom and dad and that I do love him and enjoy being with him and,

and then trying to model that.

Heather: Yes.

Davenia: You know, that experience excitement for, for them as well. And, and they would roll their eyes and gag and like my kids too.

Heather: Yes. Yeah.

Speaker Annie: Now if you're, somebody's listening and they're like, oh, I haven't done that. Is it too late to start?

Heather: Your best days are always ahead of you.

You know, for the Christian, the testimony is always, it's not what happened before. It's always the unfolding process of the journey that you're on with God right now. No, it's never too late to start.

You, you start, you, you say, okay, let's sit down and look at what the week looks like. And I'm big on like having.

We'll do family meetings, you know, where we'll do family check ins. What's something that you're struggling with this week? What's something that you're thinking about? I told you. What's a way that mom can do this better, can parent you better.

How would you navigate this punishment? That's probably my communication background. But communication is so important for people to negotiate roles. And, and we create in communication theory. We call it family rules theory.

Every family has rules.

And often what happens is nobody,

nobody vocalizes that it's a rule.

Does that make sense? So you live and you abide by rules that nobody actually says verbally.

And so sometimes there can be a. A mistake. We can use an example in friendship, like if it's a fan. If you have a friendship rule that says,

I don't want you to hang out with somebody who is talking bad about me,

and if you hang out with somebody who's talking bad about me, I feel like you've breached the rules of our friendship. I feel like you're not a good friend to me.

Well, maybe that person didn't have that rule.

So unless you say it makes me feel X, Y, Z. When you hang out with somebody who has disrespected me,

I want you to under. Right, right now we can be in a dialogue where somebody can tell you why, maybe they don't see it that way, or, well, I was friends with both of you.

Can you understand? Let me tell you, a rule for me in friendship is blah, blah, blah. We have to negotiate the terms of the agreement. And so it's important for me and my husband as a family that we sit down and have just conversations about how the family dynamic is looking and what's working and what should we shift.

Speaker Annie: Now when we talk about Christians and marriage?

So I know I'm going to bring up a verse that all of us are very familiar with is Ephesians 5.

So in verse 21, it says, Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.

We're living in the 21st century where women are strong and independent and powerful. And it says,

wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.

Is that still applicable to the 21st century women?

And if so, how.

Heather: Yeah, I would keep reading because the next line says,

and husbands,

love your wives.

Right? At a cultural time where literally, if you read the Mishnah, I'm big on understanding, again, communication, like the context of Scripture.

In the Mishnah, there are teachings that say, you can divorce your wife if she burns your toast.

These are not literally. That's what it says. You can divorce your wife if she burns your toes. These are not marriages that are built especially, I mean, going back past the,

Even probably the 1800s, going back before that. Marriages aren't built on love.

They're built on economics or family hierarchy and business and trade.

There's a lot more going on than loving one another.

And at a time when women have very little right.

Divorce her. One of the rabbis says, if she burns your toes. Paul writes, husbands,

love your wives.

Davenia: Amen.

Heather: Right. So the context to all these things I think is very important. It's. It is not hard for me to submit to somebody who loves me and vice versa and is displaying that,

you know, So I think it is. We should never.

Scripture is not a singular verse. And Paul is not writing a verse, he's writing a letter.

Right. Where therefore there are letters probably that started the conversation that maybe we don't have. There's so much context often missing in Scripture. So you want to take the time and really sit down and say, oh, what is this?

Can something mean what it didn't mean to the original reader? And there's an original audience sense.

I love that you can say what the Bible says and not say what the Bible means there. This is two very different things. And so I always say to, to my people when I do ministry, like, Bible reading is not Bible study.

And I actually,

not to be negative, but I think we're living in a time where there's a lot of Bible readers who are not literate in actual Bible study.

And we're, we're making denominational choices. We are, we are doing religious persecution. We are basing like liter, you know what I mean? We are trying to base churches and Christian principles off of a line that the Bible says without taking the time to understand that the Bible is a library.

This is a, this is not a singular book. This is multiple writings, which is 72% song and poetry and stories.

72% of your Bible is song, poetry and story.

Think about the type of messages that are communicated when somebody writes a poem versus when somebody's writing like a legal document. Those are two very different genres.

And I think sometimes we think of the Bible as like a legal document. That's not how the Jews saw it. I can tell you if you any research into the Talmud and how the Jews go through Scripture.

I mean, they go line by line and it's okay to disagree.

If you read the. There's a book called Wisdom of the Fathers. It's all about the Talmud and,

and how the rabbis would go through these sacred texts for them. And they're arguing from line one and it's all recorded there for you. It's like a commentary of maybe five different rabbis saying, well, I think this means this and, well, no, you're not paying attention to this point.

This is what it means. That's how the Jews went through thought, is debate and having differences of opinion. There's not one unilateral way to see something. And I think in Westernized Christianity, we've lost all of that history.

And we start like,

well, the Bible says that I believe it. And it's one verse that has no. If you don't understand. The context of the Bible is simply the story of God pursuing people and being committed to humanity despite humanity.

That's the point. It's about God.

It's not necessarily.

It's not. I would say it's not even a manual on how we're supposed to live.

It is.

Davenia: It's a love story.

Heather: It's a story of God pursuing people who don't deserve it. We never deserve it.

Yeah, and he keeps doing it. Even like Ezekiel, like, when he's going on and on about, like, different curses. Then if you go. If you. If you take one of those verses, you'll say, what a mean God.

You get to the end of the letter of Ezekiel, of the prophecies, and he's begging them to come back to him. If you turn from these wicked ways, then I will restore you to the land.

Right. Like, it's always about God trying to get you back,

not reject you. Anyway, that's a whole other caveat.

Davenia: Yeah.

Heather: No.

Davenia: Oh, my goodness.

We could do this all day. Literally all day. Is so fascinating and so grateful to what you've shared and.

But I know we have to come to a close. So in conclusion there,

we always ask our guests two questions. One, is there a passage of scripture that would.

That resonates with you, A Bible verse, a story or character?

Heather: I mean, my favorite Bible verse is Romans 2, 4. It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. It is not the hell of God, the wrath of God, the anger of God.

It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. May we reflect the goodness of God in our dealings with others as human beings.

Davenia: Amen. Amen.

And is there a song that you would say, sir, sort of as the. Either the theme song of your life or one that particularly has motivated you recently?

Heather: Tamela, man, take me to the king. That's. That's on repeat for me.

Speaker Annie: Wow. Heather, we can't thank you enough. This. This time just flew by. I was like, has it only been 10 minutes? What?

Heather: Wait a minute.

Speaker Annie: We thank you so much for taking your time to come and share with Us. Your thoughts and your way of thinking is just so enlightening and also refreshing and relatable.

And we didn't know what exact direction we went in all kinds of different directions. But, you know, we talked about Ephesians 5, where it says, wives, submit yourselves to your husband.

But it also says that husbands should love their wives. Just love the church. And hold on. What did Christ do? Oh, he gave his life for the church. So, men, while we wives submit ourselves to you,

be prepared to die for us.

Heather: Yes, indeed.

Speaker Annie: But although we can laugh and joke about that, it's a very serious thing that God has done. And communication is key to having a healthy marriage, a healthy family, spending time where you're still a husband and wife, even though you're raising.

Heather: Yes. Yes.

Speaker Annie: And I think one of the most beautiful things that I learned today from hearing Heather is that while you pray as an individual, while you're having that communication with God,

don't just pray that God reveals himself to you, but more importantly that he reveals himself through you. And as Matthew 5:16 says,

Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father,

which is in heaven. May that be our prayer today. And so, listeners, from Divinia and my heart to yours,

this song's for you