S3E3: Christian Girls Guide to Divorce: Rule #1 Divorce Hurts but God Heals

During the pandemic both Annie and Davenia binge watched a popular television series entitled Girlfriends Guide to Divorce. While it was meant to be entertaining, it actually made us a bit sad, because so many of the messages that the series sent were in direct contradiction to God's messages for Christian living.

So this episode highlights a conversation that we had with Patricia Watts John and Weena Wise, both divorced, both secure in God's love for them, and both living extraordinary lives. Join us for a candid conversation about how to see beautiful again, even post divorce. You'll laugh, you'll cry, and you may even praise a little.

As always, Annie and I would love to hear from you. How have you been able see beautiful again, even after a traumatic or hurtful experience? Please share your story with us on IG @davenialeawrites, or on FB @annieraney.

Finally, your reviews mean the world to us, and they also assist us in spreading God's message of hope and victory across the globe! So please leave us a review on your favorite podcast player or on our Podcast Webpage 

Tell us what you think of this episode and we'd also love to hear your story!

Today's episode song is I Didn't Know My Own Strength by Whitney Houston. Please note this song is for your listening enjoyment only and can not be downloaded or shared.

Thanks for listening! From our hearts to yours!!

Annie and Davenia

Transcript

Annie: Welcome to the didn't ask to be a hero podcast. I'm your host, Annie Rainey. In each episode, we will get an opportunity to see how ordinary women are now living amazing, abundant, and extraordinary lives with God's help. May their stories serve to encourage and inspire you. Let's get started. Hello, listeners, and welcome to our episode. Today, I want to give you a little bit of background as to how we got to the topic that we are going to be dealing with today. So Davenia and I like to converse about, you know, hey, what show are you binging? Do any of you like to binge shows? Because Davinia and I do. So we always like, you know, it depends on how we feel. We want a mystery. We want a romance. What kind of show? So one day I said to her, Davenia, here's a show that is dramatic and funny, and it's just Hollywood, you know, just craziness. So you can kind of get away from real life problems and watch a show. And she's like, well, what is it? And I said, well, it's called a girlfriend's guide to divorce. And I said, you know, girl, it's about these girls who get divorced and how they have a rule for every episode. And the show does shows that rule in, like, a funny and maybe dramatic way. Sometimes they're tears, but it's mostly funny. And I said, oh, you're gonna love it. So she says, all right, I'll give it a try. And then she comes back to me, like, a week or so later and says, it was so good, I binged the whole entire thing.

Weena: Wow.

Annie: And so then we talked about it, and I said, you know, though, how is it for a woman, as a Christian woman, to get divorced, to live life? What is it like? And so, Davinia, I'm gonna invite into this episode today, and, Davenia, I want you to touch upon this a little bit and maybe perhaps introduce our guest today.

Davenia: Yeah. So, as Annie shared, we watched this show, and for me, the thought was, this is what the world is saying, but is this applicable to us as Christians? And this, the rules that they give, the experiences that they have come from a worldly perspective. But today's episode is that quest to understand from a Christian perspective, how should we as Christians think about this whole notion of divorce? So I just been having the conversations, and today we have with us two phenomenal women. I know them both, and they've been such an inspiration to me in various ways. But today we have Weena wise with us who like I said, a phenomenal woman. It's a mother of a 13 year old daughter and also, by profession, a family therapist, counselor, and just a woman on fire for God. And we also have with us Patricia Watts John, who. She just has such a heart for Jesus and serving him and a heart for ministry to others. She has two beautiful children who are now college aged. I can't believe it. And by profession is a. I'll mess it up. She can correct me, but sort of a wellness coach for persons who have diabetes. And so I want to invite them both into this conversation about divorce, providing that Christian girl's guide to divorce, sort of setting the record straight, if you will, from biblical perspective. So welcome, ladies.

Weena: Thank you so much.

Patricia: Thank you for having us here. Appreciate it.

Davenia: All right, so we'll just jump in and get started. How about each of you?

Weena: Shay?

Davenia: I gave a quick overview of introduction as to who you are, but why don't each of you tell us your story? We'll start with Patricia.

Patricia: You know, it's so funny. Sometimes when I meet people, female or male, and when I'm talking to them and the conversation is rolling, I'm like, okay, so what's your story? Because everybody has a story. So what's your story? So I understand now. Okay, so my story is. So let's start off background. I was born in London, England, raised in Toronto, Canada. And I have Jamaican parents, very strict Jamaican parents, and now I am a us citizen. So I've been around the block a little bit. I love to travel. I have two beautiful kids, 20 and 18. I want to believe I brought them up in a God fearing Christian home. I was a stay at home mom for many years. When I got married, my husband, my former husband, I think, liked the more traditional sense of what the gender roles would be. So I stayed home and I nurtured and raised our two children for maybe 1213 years, maybe 14 years. I kind of lost track. And then I kind of went into the workforce, and then I went and volunteered at my kids school when they were finished their education. And then God brought me over to another type of. I have a degree in public health. So he brought me into another venue, because God knew that what I was doing right now wasn't going to be suffice. He knew what the future was going to be, but I didn't, in turn, see the future. So I would say 2015, going into 16 is when I had some unfortunate news from my former husband. And from then, I wanted to see if the marriage could work. And he wanted to also. But I do believe in Amos.

Weena: Three.

Patricia: Three. When it says, can two walk together? Lest you agree, if you're not in the same agreement, then two of you will be going the same way. You will literally be spilling plats. So at first, we did believe that, but as time went on, our paths started to separate. So as a result, fast forward, 2024. I am now divorced. Been divorced for probably, I'm thinking maybe two years. Hasn't been that long. And funny enough, my divorce happened on Valentine's Day. I feel sorry for the next guy, but it's always going to bring back memories. But no happy memories. You know, happy memories. And I don't defame anybody's character. He's a great person. And, you know, sometimes great people make poor choices. So that's where I am now. Moving forward.

Davenia: Yes. Thank you, Patricia. Yeah. And we'll delve into more specifics later, but, Weena, tell us your story.

Weena: I'll take it away. Yeah. So I grew up in Chicago, on the west side and in the western suburbs, and I found Christ at the age of ten during vacation Bible school with my best friend and her family. My mom was raised Christian. However, she did not force us to go to church when we were younger because she had been forced to go to church four or five days out of the week when she was younger. And she wanted to give us the opportunity to find Christ on our own. And when I did, I jumped in with both feet. I would study the Bible before bed every night on my own, and I hung rides to church with my best friend's family. And then sometimes I went with one of my older sisters on the weekend. I was really devoted to the Christian faith, and I realized that I would need it as a life raft because my childhood was not an easy one. My father and my mother separated when I was about eight years old. My mom had to leave my father, unfortunately, because he was unemployed, often inconsistent, and he also happened to be unfaithful and ultimately was a bigamist, which means that he was legally married to another woman without my mom knowing when they were married. And so because of many reasons, she had to leave that marriage. Yet she remained married to him until the day that he died, which happened when I was 18 at a freshman in college. So she separated, but she did not divorce from him. And after she separated from my father, she had four children. We were in another suburb nearby where we used to live, but she was now a single mom. She had to work two jobs. She often worked in the day and in the evening. And when she started dating again, she met a man who actually was a sexual predator. And unfortunately, he raped me and threatened to kill my mom if I ever told anyone. So because of that, when that came out, because I did ultimately disclose it, that caused a lot of trouble, a lot of upheaval in our already broken family, and times are really tough. So as I continued to grow up, I used college as a space where I could start to recalibrate, reidentify with some different values and principles. And I clung to the Christian faith more and more as I became an adult. That's where I first developed my ideas about marriage. And I really was hoping for a piece of that Christian American dream where I met a Christian man who would pray with me, partner with me, and ultimately protect and provide for the family. Because I had so much trauma in my background, I did ultimately meet someone, maybe at the start of my second time in grad school, and we had a long distance relationship. He was stable, reliable, dependable, and I thought, oh, my goodness, he's a Christian. This is going to be wonderful. We're going to conquer the world together. And so we dated long distance and married within about a year and a half to two years of having met each other. And unfortunately, long distance dating does not allow you to really understand who a person is or what the dynamics will be like when you actually become married. And so when we actually got married, that's when we moved in together, and that's when we really started to see that there was a lack of compatibility and that there were just some dynamics between us that were not necessarily the healthiest. We did all the things that we were told to do spiritually. We went to three different marriage counselors over the course of our almost 15 year marriage, but we struggled. And the amazing part is that I am a licensed marriage and family therapist, so I sit with people every single day. And as I was championing the calls for other people's relationships and really looking at all of the intricacies that I was seeing in other people's lives, I said, wow, my marriage is really bad. And so when you can look at such a diverse array of people's problems and come home and say, this one, this is different, it really gives you something to think about. So just to scale it, I do about 1000 hours a year, which means that since this is my 20th year, I've had over 20,000 sessions, and at least 50% of those have been with couples. And clinically, I've been trained by the best. I went to a school that was ranked in the top three in the nation, and the skills are just sharp. People call me the whisperer and I really enjoy what I do. I know that it's my purpose and it's such a blessing to be able to protect love every day. So when my own relationship is such a struggle year after year after year after year, it's a hard situation to be in. But I'm sure you all know that as healers, you are burdened with a specific problem that you have to figure out for yourself so that you can ultimately help others out. So in the 13th year of the marriage, after multiple rounds of therapy and some, some pretty challenging situations that I choose not to delve too deeply into, because I want to respect the privacy of the marriage and respect my daughter's right to just be a daughter and not worry about her parents marriage, I finally did something really bold and audacious. I had been reading a devotional book, and in that devotional book, a first lady of a church was worried because the church was in danger of being foreclosed on. And she decided that she would go up to the church every night and stay at the church and pray for a portion of the night, every night, until she got a breakthrough that the church would be saved. It took months and months. Her knees were weak and hurting from the prayers every night. But eventually she got the breakthrough that she needed. The church was saved. And something about that told me that if I really wanted to get an answer about whether or not it was okay to leave the marriage, I was going to have to do something I had never done. So I committed during Lenten season to fast for 72 hours a week, every week for 52 weeks. I decided to take my focus off of chasing the marriage and trying to resolve all the problems and just chase God harder than I'd ever chased him before. And so I did. I fasted for twelve months, for three days out of those twelve months, out of those weeks of the twelve months, I fasted on different continents, in different settings. Wherever I was, I just honored the commitment because I realized that I just couldn't go another year without knowing what to do. And God answered my prayers in the 12th month, two weeks before the fast was over, and he showed me my marriage in another couple at a workshop that I was at. And there were 50 other therapists in the room watching this couple work with another therapist. And ultimately, the couple had every single thing in common with me and my ex partner, aside from our race and ethnicity and our geographic location. It was a miracle just how identical they were to us and their problems were, and they absolutely could not be saved. And every therapist in the room, in addition to the trainer who was able to help all the other couples that came that day for help said unanimously, because of the particular problems that this couple was having, they just. They couldn't see it being salvaged. And I really believe that God knew that it was not going to take one person, it was going to take 51 people to get me to let it go. But I had the peace in my heart after that to do what I felt I needed to do. And ultimately we separated, and we've now been divorced for four years, so that's part of my story. Wow.

Patricia: And can I just piggyback off of what you have said? It's amazing how the Holy Spirit works, because, in turn, my marriage had dissolved. We were living in the same house, under the same roof, basically, just for the children's sake. And I was thinking to myself, too, because I didn't have any, I don't have no knowledge in law, I didn't know what to do. And I will never forget this as plain as day. My girlfriend says to me, Patricia, when it's time to leave, the Holy Spirit will let you know. And so I took that and I ran with it and I did everything I was doing on a daily basis. And sure as my name is Patricia Watts, John, like, I'm speaking to you right now, I'm having goosebumps. The Holy Spirit says, leave now, literally. Not leave tomorrow, not leave an hour from now. Leave now, like, right now. And so the kids and I packed up our stuff, got a little duffel bag, and we headed out and the rest is history. Yes. So I give homage to the Holy Spirit and how he speaks to us and how he will let us know when it's his time. Then it's the right time. So just encourage everybody who's listening out there to be obedient. Be obedient to the Holy Spirit. Hear that still, small voice when the Holy Spirit is talking to you? Yes.

Davenia: Well, I have goosebumps just hearing from both of you. And, you know, I think oftentimes that's one of those misconceptions about divorce, that you didn't try hard enough or. Yeah, your decisions can't be of God, but just hearing your stories, you know, it's. It shows that God was speaking to you, guiding you both, and you did what so many of us don't do when we have any problem and that's to seek God and his wisdom. And so you both get this directive, pretty much, it's time to go. Done all that you could do. You tried. It's time to go. And I guess my question is, so what did it take for you to do that? You get the directive and you're clear. But how do you take that next step and then continue to trust that God is going to be with you? Were there times where you. Where doubt fret back in or times where you questioned, what did I really hear, God clearly or not? Thoughts on that?

Patricia: I know from me, I've have, you know, the Holy Spirit and I have a. Have a connection. Like. Like, whatever you said to do, I'm right there with you, because I have had incidents in my life where I have had to rely on the Holy Spirit, and he has. And he had said, do this, and I did it right away. So when I knew the voice was coming from, I knew that I had to go out on faith. I had to. I didn't question the fact that. Are you sure? I mean, what about this? So, literally, when we left, I had nowhere to go. I called up my girlfriend. I was like, yo, we need a place to stay tonight. I mean, it was like that. And she was like, come on by. I mean, we were homeless for a while. I would never said, okay, so. And I'm a planner, so I knew this was strictly going out on faith, so I called up my girlfriend. She housed us for a couple of weeks, and then we went to another place where they housed us for another couple of months, and then that's when I ended up getting an apartment. But not everybody's on that level of, like, go where? Okay. Like that, you know, level where you can just do whatever the holy spirit leads. And whatever happens in the future, that's on you. I'm just gonna go where he leads. Not everybody was. Not everybody's like that. The only reason why I was like this, because I've had experiences in the past where he has said, go do this, do that, and I've done it. And he has shown himself to be a provider or protector. I got you. If I'm going to tell you to go, I'm not going to put you out there. I'm going to literally give you the steps necessary to be successful. So that's what happened in my mind.

Davenia: That's faith, right?

Patricia: 100%. F a I t h. 100%. Yeah. You have to go on.

Davenia: Yep.

Weena: I think that it's really important here to talk about how, while it seems like Christ was in both of our lives, Patricia, throughout the marriages and throughout the entire process. The amazing thing is that there were moments in the years leading up that you're praying, but you're also trying every natural intervention possible to make things work. So for me, in terms of having to leave and what to do next, there was a lot of grieving that happened inside of the marriage as all of the failed attempts to recover it and save it were happening, right? So maybe three years prior to actually leaving, I made an attempt to leave. Almost every holiday was, you know, this major blow up. And when I first started really trying to kind of get my feet out the door, I'd, you know, be at my women's retreat. And there was one year where one woman from the women's retreat pulled me to the side and very privately said, you know, God has a word. He told me to talk to you last year about the fact that something really bad is happening in your marriage, and for whatever reason, I just couldn't do it. But again, he's in my face this year, telling me, I need to talk to you. And that was probably the first time that I felt like God really sees me, right. He really sees what's happening in the marriage. And so that was one of the turning points that made me feel a bit stronger, made me feel like, okay, he sees me. I'm going to try still to make it work, because the word was, on some levels, you're going to have to confront this, and right now, go back. And it was hard because I had been in a more traditional role of allowing my spouse to be the breadwinner. And in the area that we live, it is costly to leave. And so from a financial standpoint, I was thinking a lot about quality of life for my daughter if at the moment, I jumped out and tried to secure housing. And so I went back, of course, wanting things to work that year, maybe this is the turning point, and things will get better. And for about six months, they did. And then the switch flipped again, and it got even worse. So when it got worse, what I had been doing, though, was doing things in the business that would help financially in case I really needed to step out on my own. So by the next year, I was in a better position to actually leave. And then there was another blow up. And I thought, okay, this is going to be the year. And because I wanted that relationship to work, I stayed yet again. And by maybe halfway through that year, something bad happened again. And I was fasting at that point. And so I said, Weena, just hold on. Let's just get through this fast. Let's see what the Lord says. And by the time the fast was over, I was in a position where I could leave and I could do it very thoughtfully. And I was always considering that every year that I stayed, my daughter would be a bit sturdier. She would be able to handle emotionally and process what was happening. And so when I left, she was about eight, eight and a half. And when we got to the other side, meaning I'm in a condo, a small one, and we're working it out that first year, and all the adjustments are being made, I said to her, I wouldn't have done this if I could have done something differently. And she said, it's okay, mom. Sometimes you just have to take care of yourself, you know?

Patricia: Wow.

Weena: Out of the mouth of babes, right?

Patricia: Yes, absolutely.

Weena: So how you do it looks different for everybody. But what I will say is that when I did it, I had the peace of God. There were moments that I wanted to do it before I did it, where I was still questioning, can I do this and do this with grace? But by the time I finally did it, I had grieved. I had done all the thinking, all the praying, all the fasting. So on the other side of it, while it was still hard, I felt like I had the validation and the assurance that I needed to get through the hard stuff.

Annie: So I'd like to say, okay, I thank you both, by the way, for sharing your stories of faith and how the Holy Spirit and God guided you and you felt him with you through all the difficult struggles. But. So I'd like to really reach out to some of our listeners, maybe, who might be struggling right now in their relationships. And sometimes it can put a damper on our faith. Like, lord, what's going on here? I thought I married for life and love, and you brought me this man. And now I'm struggling with my. With everything, with my children. And so what can you say, either about what you went through or what somebody else is going through right now? Some piece of advice about where you feel like you're all alone? How do you climb back up and cling to Jesus?

Patricia: I'll let you. I was gonna say, we not let you answer that question.

Weena: Not a problem at all. What I was discovering throughout the process as a marriage therapist and as a person whose marriage was not working was that there's a lot of work to be done there. I had to do the work of understanding that while I have this amazing gift and this sharpness to help fix other people's relationships, repair them, and prepare people for healthier marriages, that it's like, I'm a mechanic, but a mechanic's car still breaks down. Right. And there's no way you can prevent that. But what I did have to understand, and this is what I want other people to understand about their faith and about when they're looking at how the relationship isn't working and they're unable to make it work, is that even at your best, you may still be wrong. For someone is really important to hold on to. At your very best, you may never be right for the wrong person. So sometimes, even when you're working your hardest and they're working their hardest, the lack of compatibility or the lack of counseling because of previous traumas, the lack of resources to help the relationship, all of those things are going to work against you. And I say that as a professional who sits in relationships all the time. And then I also saw it in my own relationship as it was happening. And I do believe that God hates divorce, but he never meant for us to have the traumas that we have or be so unprepared. That's a very different way of thinking about it, that it starts from a step back versus when we're in the relationship, we start thinking about it in.

Davenia: Real time, us thinking, you know, from everything I've heard, it really is about your individual relationship with Christ.

Weena: Yeah.

Davenia: You may have two people or two different relationships where they experience the exact same type of things, but God's directive might be different for your relationship versus another relationship. And I think that when, I think you sort of mentioned how, especially in the church, we have such rigid, narrow, small little boxes that we want everyone to fit into. And so we say marriages, ABC. And then that's it. And so what about me, who is EFG? Where do I fit into this? And so I think it's about more about that relationship with God. To commune with him, walk with him, and allow him to speak, speak to your heart about, do I go back and try again? Do I make. Try to make this work? Do I stay? Do I go?

Weena: It.

Davenia: It has to be about that relationship. And I think when we stray from. From that and look to, well, how has the church defined it? And what will others say then? Then I think that's when we fall into trouble. Right?

Patricia: I do believe everybody's case is individualized because for me, I don't have any regrets, even though it turned out how I didn't want it to turn out. But I don't have any regrets, because I put that fleece out like Gideon. I put it out three times for this marriage, and every single time, the Lord said, and I made it so hard, so difficult. And I, like, I just know he ain't gonna come through. I just know this versus nothing. Let me tell you. It was. The specific specificity of this fleece was so specific, and it came through to a t. And I was after that, I was like, okay, God, all right, I'm supposed to marry him, right? So even though he said yes, he also knew the future. And I bad self. I even asked the Lord, I said, come on, lord. If you knew, like, you knew this was going to happen, why did you allow this process to take place? You know, I put up the fleece three times, and each time, you said yes, but then, sure enough, you know, down the road, this going to happen, so. And I'm sorry for asking you, Laura, but I just got to know. I just got to know what was. What were you thinking? And so he says, what's your kids names? And I said, excuse me? He's like, what's your kids names? And I said, okay. And I sent the names out to him, and he's like, that's why. That's why. And I said, okay, I will never question you again, ever question you again about this process. I will lead wherever you take me. Tooth. So I felt alone in this process, like, going through what I was going through, but I never felt lonely. Never felt lonely because I knew he had led me here, and he'll lead me in the future.

Weena: Yeah.

Davenia: And I also, you know, again, when we talk about these little boxes, so the church says one thing about marriage, then we have Disney telling us what happily ever after looks like. And I was the queen of the Disney Princess movies and shows, and I. From the time I could read a book, you know, I believed in, he's gonna find me, rescue me, marry me, and we're gonna live happily ever after.

Patricia: That was it.

Davenia: That that was story no one talked about. Like, there was never the sequel, right? Like, let's say for pretty woman, the sequel of. Okay, they didn't. They got married, and then, you know, Vivian has to move, and then she's lured back into being on the street. Like, there is no sequel to Cinderella, and she's in the castle, and. And then her husband find someone more fair than she, you know, we just get happily ever after, and.

Annie: Davina, I want to switch gears for a minute. So we've talked a lot about, like, what the process was and what you went through about getting divorced. So now you both have been divorced Christian women with strong faith in God. Divorced for a few years, I think from the timelines, at least five years. I think for both of you, maybe a few more. And so that means your children were. I think we said eight. And then, Patricia, I'm thinking maybe high schoolish. Middle school.

Patricia: Yeah, they're high school. Yes.

Annie: And so I wanted to know for both of you, what were holidays like, especially, let's say, thanksgiving, Christmas. Those are the big ones that we gather together. Patricia, let me start with you. And then we know you, too.

Patricia: What was it like that really hurt my kids big time? Because every Christmas, like clockwork, we would go on a cruise every Christmas with just our family, immediate family. So my kids have been on, like, nine cruises, and so now they're looking at me like, it's about that time. December's coming up. What you gonna do? I'm like, obviously, I can't afford to take you all on a cruise like that. But that part, I think, has hit them or hurt them the most. Christmas time comes. I know they always think about, yeah, we all used to go on a cruise as a family. We never really went to my family's house or his family's house. We would just do things as a family together during Christmas time. So during Christmas, I try to incorporate something unpleasant for them. We haven't been on a cruise yet, but we're going to. We're going to. Or somebody will invite us over. A friend or a family member will invite us over. Or sometimes we'll go down to my sister's house for the most part. But I want to. I want to. I want them to keep up that tradition, even if they do with their own families, that on Christmas time, we take a boat ride and we go somewhere for Christmas. That's in the works. That's in the works. Got it.

Weena: Yeah. The holidays are a little different for us in the sense that we both have very small families that are not from the area. So it would be rare that it would be a really big family celebration. It would be just us, or us and the community that we created here for the holidays. What I will say about our co parenting relationship is that we both are very adamant about making sure that our daughter doesn't fall through the cracks and that she doesn't feel any ripples of instability at her level. So we actually still spend the holidays together. On Christmas, I used to go over and actually still spend the night on Christmas Eve. Christmas morning, we wake up, we still open presents together. We still get each other a present on Thanksgiving. If one of my relatives or a couple of relatives come into town, they still go over. We all go over to the old house, and we do thanksgiving together. Now, you know, toward the end of the day, we may separate. One of us, you know, goes home alone, and the other of us stays with our daughter, and they may, you know, take her to somebody else's friends giving or thanksgiving, and then we both travel separately with her. So right after Christmas, every other year, I do a mother daughter trip with her. Last year was Hawaii for New Year's, and, you know, her dad might take her to Spain in the summer. So we do still try to preserve the holidays. No matter what is happening between the two of us, we keep that sacrosanct. And it is still hard in the sense that when we're around our old community of couples who may still be intact, I can tell that she looks and thinks about her own life and how all of us used to fit in as a unit to that community. But she's adjusted quite well, and she started to identify more with other students at her school who also have two homes, two holidays, two families, and that normalized the process for her a lot.

Davenia: Wow.

Annie: Thank you both for sharing that. It kind of led me to this next question.

Patricia: Okay.

Annie: In a divorce situation, especially with kids, and you have, both of you were married for over a decade, and, you know, what happens with the friends.

Patricia: Great question. That's a great question. I have been fortunate. I can really say I have been fortunate to have a great support system and great friends. We get invited to so many things. So I would say on my end of it, it has never stopped. I go everywhere, every. All the time, and my kids come right along with me. Yeah, that's fortunate. So that's the only reason why it happened, because I had. I did put myself out there, even when the news broke that what had happened in the relationship, I didn't want to act like a hermit. I didn't want to be embarrassed or I didn't want to feel like, you know, not worthy. I didn't want to feel like, oh, all the shame is on me, and everybody's looking at me and they're whispering behind my back. I was. I would. I took the total opposite approach. I was like, yeah, you know, what's going on? Okay, if you want to say something to me, go ahead and say it. But I'm here for all the questions. Bring it on. So there's not going to be any whispering, they're not going to be any talking behind my back, because I have made the choice to put myself out there. And as a result, I made a lot of friends. And as a result, we get invited everywhere, every different holiday, different events. Yeah. Moving forward. So I'm one of the fortunate ones.

Weena: Yeah. Yeah. I would say that it sounds odd, but we had a lot of couple friends, you know, strong, black Christian families. We all had our kids at the same time, and we moved as a unit with some of those families and traveled with some of those families. But family life is so busy that, you know, you are coordinating those times together. So when our relationship ended, there was this quarantine time, like during COVID where we were just alone. Everybody was separated from everybody. But as things started to open back up, I can honestly say that I still retain relationships with those really close couples on my own. And he retained relationships with the husbands. So instead of anybody really choosing a side, everybody just moves in their own orbit. And it's very interesting how it works, but I may take my daughter with, you know, a couple and their kids to a summer vacation, and then three weeks later, they're going to a dog park with him and my daughter because they own a dog and, you know, it works. Nobody decided that they're excommunicating. Even my sibling, who was very close to us, she still calls. She calls him, you know, on his birthday or when something's funny, they'll share a text. Her feeling is, no matter what, he'll always be my brother. And I don't want to give the impression that it's always easy or that there weren't times in the beginning where it felt awkward or that there was no pain and there were no pain points. But the biggest piece of hope I can give to people is that it really does get better.

Patricia: Absolutely.

Weena: But the first year, maybe even more. You two might not be speaking except to co parents. And you think, we're never going to get to a civil place. This is never going to get better. We're never going to establish any rituals and routines. But for most people, after you've done the work, after someone's attended some therapy, gone to a support group, after the smoke has cleared, if you focus on the children, things like this, coming together with community and family, you really work hard to figure out how to do it with harmony.

Davenia: I was so sort of two questions. One is so I have someone very close to me who they have been married for 20 years. And then one day, by the way, we're separated. And I think for me, I might. I think I'm taking it harder than you two. Like, I was just like, it's on the one that can't be, because I never saw it coming. And I, you know, just thought you guys were good because you never indicated otherwise. But for people like me or who might have friends or family or church members who are separated or divorced, what advice would you give for how we can be truly supportive?

Weena: It is a loss. It is secondary trauma. It is absolutely secondary trauma. And it changed all of our lives. It changed the fabric of everything that we did. I was the first of a group of ten that got divorced. They still feel the effects of. Of not having all of us together as a unit. How they showed up to support it was not a perfect science. And the communication was the most important piece. I actually had to open my mouth and say, I'm feeling a bit alone over here. I need you to be here more. I need you to call more. I need you to come by more.

Patricia: Absolutely. And for somebody who's prideful and who is very, very private, I basically suffered in silence because I didn't want anybody to know. Like, I knew people knew it, but I didn't want them to. I feel like I was in denial for it, but I would say, don't be afraid to reach out. It's just like that person who just lost their dad or their mom or their husband. It's like that awkward conversation of my condolences or, like, what? Am I really supposed to say the same thing about this? If you know something, if you hear something, say some things. So for me, I would have loved if somebody would just call me and say, hey, I heard this is going on. Are you okay? Do you need to talk? Do you need any advice?

Davenia: Well, that is excellent advice. I think what I heard is just show up. You know, you may not have the right words to say, but maybe even acknowledge that, but at least let the person know, hey, I'm here for you. There was this article that I read, and in the article, they talked about what they would like for others to know about divorce. I'll briefly read them, and you all can yay or nay it.

Patricia: All right.

Weena: Okay.

Davenia: Point number one. Divorce is an event, a part of my story, but it's not my identity.

Weena: Yeah, true.

Patricia: Absolutely, 100%.

Davenia: Divorce doesn't make me a bad person.

Patricia: True.

Weena: True.

Davenia: I am not after your spouse.

Patricia: 100%. True.

Weena: True.

Annie: True.

Weena: I've had one.

Davenia: Good luck with yours. I am grieving or have grieved the loss of my marriage. And then it says, so please don't add more guilt and pain. Using scriptures to condemn me. Show me God's love instead.

Patricia: True, true, true, true.

Weena: And fortunately, that has never happened to me to my face.

Davenia: I may not be comfortable giving the details of my divorce, so don't ask probing personal questions.

Weena: I'm actually okay with. With people asking me questions about it. I think that that's part of the problem, that we don't talk about what happened. And so it's okay to ask me questions about it respectfully. Right?

Patricia: 100%. I totally agree. Because I have people right now who know what I've been through, and they've called me and say, hey, this is what's going on. This is what I want to do. Do you have any suggestions? Do you have any advice? And I'm like, yeah, cringe it on. I'll tell you. As much as I know, as much as I can give you, I will tell you so you don't have to, you know, go down this road alone like I did kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely.

Davenia: That is helpful, because you're right. I think if we would share more of our stories about whatever struggle we've been through or stories of how we've overcome that could help somebody else. So.

Weena: Yeah.

Davenia: And then this last one took me. It says, it's a Miss Misnomer that it takes two. It only takes one to break the marriage bow or abandon the marriage and file for divorce.

Annie: True.

Davenia: Okay. So, yes, I think that was, that. That is good advice for others moving forward. All right, so this is my last question. Dating. Either of you dating or considering dating or advice you have to others about dating.

Weena: Yes. Yes. This is a great question because most people want to know, like, what is life beyond? And the truth is that I waited a good amount of time. I went to divorce care support groups twice. I got a therapist. I worked with that therapist for a good amount of time. I'm still working with that therapist because it's important that before you tackle dating, you have a very clear understanding of what you just came out of, what your triggers are, and what you need to lay down and never pick back up again. Otherwise, you are a danger to anybody that you date in the future. So I am dating and have experienced, like, so much healing through dating now because I have the wisdom to know what to look for, what not to do, and how, even in dating, not to center the relationship on marriage. Right. That's not the only type of relationship that you can have. And so if it turns out that that relationship would be suitable, then great. But not going into it with tunnel vision, thinking that way. And that's the way a lot of people think as soon as they get that physical urge or that emotional spark, this could be my one person. And I think that you learned that this might be the right person before a different type of relationship.

Patricia: That's great advice. Well, because I am such a private person, I'm not going to disclose whether I'm dating or not. But I do believe dating is 100% essential. If that's something you desire. I will say that my life is pretty perfect right now. I don't have to come home to cook to for anybody. I don't have to argue with anybody.

Davenia: I don't have to wake up in.

Patricia: The middle of the night and be like, why aren't you still here with anybody? So I think life is great just how it is right now. I had a person ask me, he says, so I hope you don't think or do you think that just because one man makes a mistake that we're all like this? And I said, absolutely not. I believe there's great guides out there, God fearing providers, kind hearted people out there. It's up to God if you want that type of relationship or that partnership for God to once again bring that person to you. But I think dating is wonderful. If and when I'm ready for that again, I will go at it full force. And I do want to say something to the listeners out there. God weighs every single trial before he brings it to you. So if you, if you think that you're not going to, you know, because I felt like, oh, my word. I mean, this is pretty, God, this pretty, this is pretty heavy on my heart kind of thing. But he restores. It's going to take some time, but he will restore. Yeah, just like Joe, look what happened to job. God was like, look, this is going to be a pretty heavy on us, on him, on his psyche, but go ahead and. Go ahead and do what you need to do. But I know he's going to come out unscathed later on. He's going to be a different person and I'm going to give him more than what he had before. So God is going to wait every trial that's going to come your way before he says, go ahead and give it to Weena. Go ahead.

Weena: Yes.

Patricia: Yes. It's going to, it's going to be some rough times down the road, but I'm going to restore in the future for them. Yes. I'm going to restore them.

Davenia: That's excellent, excellent advice for any of us in any trial you go through, right?

Patricia: Yes.

Davenia: That there'll be some times of testing, but, and it'll be hard and you'll wonder what in the world and how did I get here? But we can see beautiful again.

Patricia: Yes.

Weena: Oh, yeah.

Davenia: Whatever your it is. And today we happen to be talking about divorce, but we all have it, right? And it's, but it's those visible ones that I think make it more challenging. So you all for you, you're talking about divorce. So people, because of their preconceived notions about that, you know, put, may put that on to you, but it could be anything.

Patricia: Anything.

Davenia: Yeah.

Annie: Ladies. So, ladies, I'm going to ask you two questions and I'll go ahead and let you answer both of them. One is what is either your favorite or just meaningful scripture, Bible verse and song that has helped you or been an inspiration to you during your trial and during all you know of divorce and Orlando maybe how you're living after divorce. So scripture and song. Let's start with you, Weena.

Weena: Okay. My favorite scripture or the guiding scripture is definitely Philippians 411. Usually people pick 412, which is I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. But the scripture before that says, I have learned the secret to being content in every situation. And you need that. That's my guiding scripture for life. But you absolutely need it when you are facing the roller coaster that is marriage and definitely separation and divorce. Learn the secret to be content in.

Annie: Every situation since you did scripture. Go ahead, Patricia, do scripture and then we'll do the songs.

Patricia: Okay, so I'll see what my scripture is for this platform in this venue, which is vengeance is mine, says the Lord. Yes. Because I'm telling you, it is so easy to just revenge and be like, look, you did this to me. Look, I'm about to show you who's. Let me tell you, I can tell you that that has come over me at some times. And when I read that scripture and I say vengeance. And I can just, I'm just, I'm just looking at what God is doing. He's like, don't worry about it. I got this. You just do what I tell you to do. I got this. And so when I marinate on that scripture, vengeance is mine. Mine. Yes.

Annie: It's easy to know that scripture. Hard to live it because you want to get human revenge. Okay, so coming to songs, Weena, what song?

Weena: I'm going to go off grid and not choose a church song. I'm going to choose. I didn't know my own strength by Whitney Houston, and I choose it because, yeah, look it up. I didn't know my own strength. It was actually written, I think. Bye, Bobbi Brown. It is a beautiful ballad, and she sang it on the last leg, meaning of her life as she was battling some of the hardest challenges in her life. And it talks about how she fell down, picked herself up and got through all of the pain, and she realized that she didn't know her own strength. And when you are going through marriage and the twists and turns of marriage and you end up having to make a decision like separating for any period of time or divorcing thing, you will discover that you do not know your own strength.

Patricia: Absolutely. Absolutely. And for me, I must admit, I'm not a song person. I don't really, I don't have a playlist or anything like that. But I do love praise and worship songs. I love Chris Tomlin. I love Hillside. I love Cece Winan. I love Mary Mary. So I love all their songs, but not really one song has actually spoken to me, especially with this experience. But I just love all praise and worship songs across the board.

Annie: Wonderful. They do give us great encouragement and. Absolutely, yeah, all of those songs. The premise is, you know, when things are dark, he is the light that pulls you through, even if you.

Patricia: Absolutely.

Annie: And, you know, listeners, I hope you've enjoyed the conversation that we've had together here with Patricia and Weena. You know, we've been talking about marriage, relationships, divorce, and I don't know, as they were talking, I started to visualize, you know, fall season right now while we're. It's coming into fall season. And have you ever been to one of those fall fairs and you go into a maze? Like a corn maze.

Patricia: Okay.

Annie: And when you go in, this thing is so tall, so you can't see where the maze goes. And your goal is to figure your way out. But you turn left, there's a dead end. You turn right, you don't know where it's going to end up. But if you learned anything from our podcast today, life, marriage, relationships, divorce, whatever you're going through, it's kind of like a maze. You don't know what's going to happen when you turn left or right. But as both of our guests mentioned today, if you rely on the Holy Spirit and God's voice, you see God. He can see from above the overview of the maze and sees the way out. And if you listen to him and he says, turn left, even though your instinct tells you to go right and he tells you to go left.

Weena: Yes, go left.

Annie: Go left. He can see where left is going. He can see your instinct is taking you to a dead end. And absolutely, if we listen to him, not only will we find the way out of the maze, but we will also find the beauty again in life, in our relationships, and in everything. So thank you for being our guest today and listeners, from our heart to yours, this song's for you.